hard starting

[s10rodder]

*BUMP*



(don\'t worry, this is an old thread, I just added a new post at the end - the truck\'s running perfectly)



OK, new problem. Nothing too major this time, just a few questions.



I\'ve had the truck on the road for about 2 weeks now and recently (actually, last saturday) I started having some problems getting the engine to start. When I first got it running it would start right up and idle fairly smooth for the cam I\'m using. Last saturday, I noticed some smoke coming out of the exhaust, after a not as smooth start as I was used to. So, I went over the mixture screws with a vac* gauge, and it still smoked, I could turn the screws in until it almost stalled and it was still smoking. I tried bumping timing up a degree or two (it\'s about 16 initial) and that didn\'t help either. After letting it idle for about 20-30 minutes messing with mixture screws/timing to no avail, I decided maybe it idled too long and had fouled the plugs. Pulled out a couple plugs and found them nice and black, like I suspected. So, I put it back together, set the mixture with the va gauge and took it for a blast to clear out the chambers. After that, it would start up nice again, and the plugs looked OK.



I didn\'t drive it again until last night and it had a hard time starting again. This time, the motor had a REAL hard time turning over. Kinda like a low battery, but I checked the battery - 11.9 volts. It took holding the key to \"start\" for a couple seconds before the motor even started turning, then it turned over REAL slow for a while before finally starting. When it did start, it had a real bad vibration/terrible idle up to about 3500rpm. I pulled one of the valve covers and it stinks like gas. Put it together, let it warm up. Still idles like crap, but at WOT feels OK, maybe a little down on power, but nothing indicating a miss or anything.



I am in the process of replacing plugs/checking for burnt wires. But do you think I should change the oil? Any other things I should check?



Sorry for the book. Just wanted to give as much detail as possible.

[Fergusonic]

I would change the oil and filter before ruining your bearings. I am wondering if the bowl float allowed massive gas flow into a cylinder or 2 or more...which might account for the slow turnover. Goodluck.

[Scotty_S-15]

I agree with Ferg, if the oil is even a little stinky, change it. In fact, change it anyway! http://www.s10v8.com/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif Sounds like maybe it\'s dumping some gas after shut off. Does your fuel pressure bleed down after shut off? Maybe it\'s percolating and flooding?

........ My dear ol\' Daddy always said engines that have had the cylinder walls \"washed down\" with gas don\'t like to start, even with clean plugs. I know, no clear logic for that statement, but Dad knew his sh*t. I once saw Dad take a car that had been flooded that wouldn\'t start. Others gave up on it. No one could get that pig running, but it had gas, and ignition. Dad pulled the plugs, squirted some oil in the cylinders, spun it over a few revs, popped the plugs in, voile! Compression? extra drag? I don\'t know.

........ I\'d say it\'s not a good policy to let a lumpy engine idle that long without a spin around the block, or better yet, a run up Schooleys Mountainhttp://www.s10v8.com/images/smilies/icon_razz.gif . But I guess you know that now.

........ 11.9 volts is a little low, what\'s the voltage when running? Should be like high 13s, maybe even 14. Ideally, should be 12.8 when shut down, and the \"fuzz\" knocked off. Next time you shut it down, turn on the lights for a couple seconds, then check the voltage. Compare that with what it reads after sitting overnight, or for a few days. That\'ll indicated a drain, or a bad battery.



Andy, let me guess, you\'re not going racing tonight.... so what\'s your excuse this week? Could it be the 4 inches of rain today, and more forecasted into tonight? http://www.s10v8.com/images/smilies/icon_razz.gif

[s10rodder]

Scotty, you mentioned fuel pressure...



Here\'s something else kinda weird. My fuel pressure gauge (tapped into the inlet feed line for the carb) is usually at about 7psi. Sometimes, it sits at 9psi and just stays there, when revving up from idle to 5-6000rpm in park. It was at 9psi yesterday while I was tinkering with it. However, the float levels are steady where they\'re supossed to be, there\'s no fuel dripping from the boosters at idle, and it doesn\'t diesel on shut off. I\'m running an edlebrock street pump, which isn\'t supossed to require a regulator, and if I remember correctly, flows 110gph. Not sure if that offers any more clues, but there it is.



Also, my voltage while running is high 13s. It\'s a fairly new optima, and hasn\'t shown any signs of a drain or bad battery.



One more thing. Any time I get a hard start like that, a good hard run up the street clears it out enough to start up fine the next few times I try to start it. Like yesterday - it started hard, idled like crap. I ran it around then brought it back home and shut it off. Immediately tried to start it again - no problem. Shut back off, waited a couple minutes, tried again - started right up. So I shut it off and started pulling the plugs and that\'s where I\'m at now. I\'ll be changing the oil/filter tonight and checking #6 & 8 plugs, since I have to unbolt the header to get at them (stupid hedmans). While they are all out, I will replace all the plugs. Who knows, maybe there\'s a problem with #6 or 8. I wouldn\'t be suprised if I had a burnt plug wire on one of them - which I\'m assuming could account for my whole problem. The boots on those two plugs have burned before, so I put this MSD metallic boot armor on them (almost like thick tin foil), along with the ceramic sleeves. This makes even the wires impossible to remove without unbolting the header, so that will be the first thing I check.



At least it\'s raining tonight, so I can\'t be pissed I missed another racing night.



Thanks for all the help so far. I will keep you posted.

[Scotty_S-15]

Andy, regarding the spark plug boot thing, I think we talked about this before. I\'ve had small Sandersons, small Hedmans, and now 1-5/8 Sanderson\'s, and have never burned a boot, and can change my plugs with ease. Well, 6 & 8 is a small challenge, especially #8. But it\'s do-able, and I\'ve got short, fat fingers. BTW, I\'ve just got the $29 Accel wires, again, never a hint of a burned boot.

........ Maybe you should try some plain, small boots, the additional clearance could be more important than all that insulation.

[s10rodder]

I was running plain, small boots. #6 & #8 burned up, so I put a bunch of \"stuff\" on them. They worked for a while.



What brand spark plugs do you run? I know some brands are slightly longer than others. The shortest ones I\'ve been able to find so far are ACs. Seems like a shorter plug would solve all my problems.



Accel doesn\'t make a shorty plug that fits my AFRs. Maybe I\'ll have to torch and dimple my newly recoated headers. I\'m almost ready to drop $1000+ for custom headers. I\'ve really had it with these hedmans.



Actually, now that I mention it, my buddy just got back from wyotech and bought himself a real nice welder. Maybe I\'ll buy some u-bends and have at it. Might be my project for this winter.

[Scotty_S-15]

I use Champ plugs, mainly because Edelbrock recommended them because \"they\'re shorter\". Are they really shorter? Not much, if at all. http://www.s10v8.com/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif But I use them still the same.

.......... I wonder why header \"spacer plates\" aren\'t used more, they\'d have to help clearance. But, the extra 3/8\" (or whatever) clearance they might provide might mess up the header to chassis clearance. Not to mention TWO surfaces to worry about header leaks, not one. http://www.s10v8.com/images/smilies/icon_razz.gif

.......... Weld up your own headers? Sounds like an all-winter project!



BTW, how did your header coating job come out?

[Kyle]

accel makes header plugs..they\'re pretty short

[s10rodder]

I mentioned them. they don\'t make one that fits my AFR heads.



but thanks. http://www.s10v8.com/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif



Scotty - headers came out great. Did you get your thank you card and refrigerator magnet? You don\'t see companys doing stuff like that too often anymore. After this no questions asked, free recoat I still got a thank you card and magnet. They have my business for life.



As for the headers, I have something to follow (kinda). check out nakedart\'s pics in the gallery - \"newest pictures\". he did some real nice work on his 95 sonoma.

[carkiller]

you dont have to pull the header to change 6+8 plug....take a old sparkplug socket, the cheap kind with the hex all the way to the top. remove the rubber and cut it in half. drill out the ratchet end so that the plug can pass through. now use the hex at the end of the socket with a 3/4 wrench.

[carkiller]

same thing i didsparkplug socket (http://www.s10v8.com/myegallery.php?&do=showpic&pid=3251)

[largekid]

we just got mine running, and the booster drips a bit of fuel at idle, then I shut it off and it wont turn over.. its warm right now, so im letting it cool off.. but the starter isnt even turning right now..

[s10rodder]

that would work great, problem is getting the BOOTS off the plugs first!



The boots are jammed so tight against the inside of the tubes that I can\'t get the boots off the plugs.



Just got new plugs. the new ones are a little shorter than the autolites I had in there. Hopefully I will be able to get the boot off them once I get it all back together.

[Ryoung68]

Are your heads angle or straight plug. My heads are straignt plug with Accel 8mm Plug wires and havent even scortched a plug wire. I have the Hedman Elite Shortie headers and us the Accel shortie header plugs for the #6 and #8 plugs and as Carkiller said an old shortened spark plug socket. I also cut a slot length ways in the socket to ease putting it on the #8 plug.

[rayL]

what size cam are you running. Reason i ask is that cams with a lot of overlap and duration WILL kill plugs idling alot. reason being that to get it to idle decent the mixture is actually very very rich. WHY? well from what ive found and read, cams with alot of overlap and duration are bad about diluting the cylinder with exhaust at low rpms. so to overcome that dilution you have to be a lil rich. Once your a lil rich the cycle begins, your exhaust then has some unburned fuel that coming back into the cylinder so thats making it that much richer...very common deal mine does it, all my buddies hot rods do it..why do you think plug readings are taken after a wide open pass and not just some idle time. cause at idle that baby is dirtying plugs. as far as slow cranking. sounds like bad starter wanting to many amps. eh just some food for though

[s10rodder]

Ray, the cam is a 248 @ .050 / .580 lift solid roller.



That\'s a real good point. I actually just read about the exhaust diluting the mixture on long overlap cams in a book I\'m reading. But I didn\'t even think about that til you mentioned it!



I\'m thinking it just needs new plugs and the mixture screws reset. The cranking thing is weird though. It\'s a brand new starter that up until last saturday has started it right up every time. Now it will only start right up after being shut off immediately after a hard run.

[rayL]

tested the battery? reason i ask a battery with a dead cell or bad cell could do the same thing. After it sits a while it will loose the surface charge and then start to show its @$$.



As far as your cam, its gonna dirty plugs while idling. Nature of the beast kinda thing. As far as hard starting look to the electrical side first.

[Scotty_S-15]

On 2005-07-08 21:11, carkiller wrote:

you dont have to pull the header to change 6+8 plug....take a old sparkplug socket, the cheap kind with the hex all the way to the top. remove the rubber and cut it in half. drill out the ratchet end so that the plug can pass through. now use the hex at the end of the socket with a 3/4 wrench.





I needed to makethis wrench (and a few extra for friends) in \'97 when I put in my first engine.



I use this on all 4 rear plugs. A lot of guys don\'t understand why this socket is needed, and why a box wrench won\'t suffice. But, some heads (like mine) have the spark plug hex nearly recessed into the head when tight. A socket is the only way to tighten or loosen them.





Spark Plug Socket (http://s10v8.com/members/Scotty_S-15/PlugSkt0634A.jpg)

[s10rodder]

I just got the rest of the plugs out. I have no problem getting a box wrench on #6 & 8. My problem was getting the boots off the plugs. Just had to loosen the headers bolts a little. That gave me enough room to get the boots off.



BTW, so far, plugs and wires/boots all look OK.

[rayL]

dielectric grease could help maybe possibly?

[JAMCAR223]

NICE PIC OF THE MODIFIED SOCKET SCOTTY!!

I UNDERSTOOD WHAT CARKILLER WAS SAYING,BUT A PICTURE IS WORTH A THOUSAND WORDS-THANKS!! RODDER,I HAVE THAT SAME PROBLEM MOST OF THE TIME,AND MY MOTOR IS ALMOST EXACTLY LIKE YOURS-IM RUNNING .580 LIFT COMP CAM

ETREME ENERGY HYD. ROLLER,WITH THE SAME HEADERS(I FU**@@) HATE THOSE HEDMANS),BUT I DONT HAVE ANY PROBLEM W/

#6 PLUG,JUST#8,AND CARKILLER/SCOTTY JUST SOLVED THAT PROBLEM.LET US KNOW WHAT YOU FIND OUT.BTW-THE 4SECONDSFLAT GUY KNOWS HIS STUFF HUH??IM TRYING TO PM YOU A PIC OF

\"WHITE LIGHTENING\" LOL!!! JAMES-

[s10rodder]

checked battery - 12.15 v after sitting since thurs night.



the hard starting I really don\'t think has anything to do with the battery or starter.



I\'m putting in new plugs right now and replacing the boots that have burned in the past, just to be sure.



Also gotta change the oil. I\'ll give an update later today when it\'s running again.

[rayL]

\"This time, the motor had a REAL hard time turning over. Kinda like a low battery, but I checked the battery - 11.9 volts. It took holding the key to \"start\" for a couple seconds before the motor even started turning, then it turned over REAL slow for a while before finally starting. When it did start, it had a real bad vibration/terrible idle up to about 3500rpm.\"



Sorry man i dont see how new plugs could correct this. Just because your measuring 12 volts dont mean the battery is good. Measure the cranking amps as this is what the starter needs. 8 AA batteries hooked together makes 12 volts, think it will start a car..??

[s10rodder]

OK, update...



The battery gets pulled down to 2-5 volts while cranking, then makes a sizzling sound from the vent after shutting down. So, battery\'s probably done.



As far as everything else, when I changed the oil I noticed some \"sparkles\" in it. I cut apart the filter and couldn\'t find any chunks or anything to be real concerned about, but I don\'t like the metallic oil. It still smokes at idle and I can\'t tune it out. Went for a hard run, checked a few plugs and they looked fine. According to that article I linked to about spark plug reading, I might be running a tad too much timing, but no signs of detonation. Heat range is good, and it looks like its getting a good hot spark.



The fuel pressure still reads 9psi while watching the underhood gauge and revving it in park. Once I turn it off, it starts bleeding down about 1psi every 2-3 minutes.



It idles much better now, I probably fouled the plugs from idling it for so long the last time. But, I\'m still concerned about the smoke at idle. It still smells rich. I will be taking it next week back up to the shop that built the motor for some dyno time and to have them check everything out.



Any more thoughts, keep em coming.

[Scotty_S-15]

Andy, how many RPMs are you idling at?



Regarding the oil, are you using a bronze dist. gear? I had one, I always saw \"sparkles\" in the oil, now I see the damned gear is about half worn out, only a couple thousand miles on it.

[s10rodder]

it idles in gear around 800 and in pk around 900.



nope, cast iron gear. the new comp roller cams have pressed on cast iron drive gears.

[stroker1]

Hard starting?! Are you SURE your timing is right? And how much of the secondary plate is open at idle, if its a mechanical secondary carb? Sounds like maybe the timing is off and maybe even you\'ve got the carb out of adjustment to make it idle decent. You should have only a tiny, tiny bit of the transfer slots exposed in the secondary throttle bores. Meaning, on a double pumper, the secondary throttle plates should almost cover the transfer slots at idle. Maybe .005\" or so from fully closed.

[s10rodder]

that\'s a good idea. I will pull the carb off and check the transfer slots. It\'s a 650 mighty demon dblpmpr.



I\'ll re-check timing too. According to my plugs, it\'s a little high.

[s10rodder]

wow, I just came across this old thread of mine...



did you guys start thinking \"oh no, poor rodder again\" when you saw this thread? http://www.s10v8.com/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif



everything makes perfect sense now. The engine was having a hard time starting because there was so much raw fuel in it it was almost hydrolocked! So taking a spin around the block would clear everything out and let it start up the next time.



What a learning experience this has been! I\'m psyched to know now I can just walk outside and pull the truck out for a spin with everything working right whenever the mood strikes.



Scotty, e-town\'s open... I\'m coming for you!

[bowtie316]

Thats how I\'m starting to feel about my truck now. I ran a 12.07 a couple weeks ago and I still manage to make the voyage to work(60 miles one way) about twice a month. The only thing that still plagues me is the 7 gallon fuel cell and the header collectors need retorqed after about 1000 miles.