Drag racing potential of s10 chassis

[servion]

Let me start my introducing myself. I am a standalone EFI tuner who has always been a honda guy at heart. My current car is street driven to the track and home, 10.4@140. Well, I have had enough fun with the civic and I\'m wanting to change pace a bit and step into a RWD v8.



I have been researching the available vehicles and their potential for a street/drag setup and I am very much leaning toward a early-gen S10 pickup. My goal for the vehicle will be to build it to run into the low 10\'s on drag radials/et streets (streetable tires). So it will see street duty, but the primary goal will be 1/4 mile performance.



The one thing holding me back from an s10 is the leight-weight rearend. I am still pretty new to tuning suspension for a RWD vehicle, but I have been searching this form and researching and my question is: how much will using an s10 versus, say a 1992 camaro or similar muscle car, hur the dragstrip (i.e. launching and traction) potential of this project vehicle? I like the 10.5w tire idea using a \"stock-style\" suspension (to race a local class here in CO). It seems that many of you hava had good success with getting the 60ft down using something like a caltrac setup, some good shocks and springs and removing a couple leaf springs to get some better 60ft times.



I realize that one benefit of an s10 pickup is that its lightweight to begin with. Basically, I am trying to determine if it will be a better chassis to start out with, or if it will be better to start with a RWD \"car\", even if its heavier in general, because it has more weight over the rear tires.



In other words, with a propery built \"stock-style\" syspension on an Et street or drag radial, assuming the vehicle has the powre requirements for a mid 10-second 1/4 pass, what kind of 60\' times can I reasonably expect? Will this sort of setup be able to hook on the street as well?



Thanks for your help

-servion

[s10carguy]

a short bed S10 with the correct motor mounts and a 9 inch rear should have plenty of weight on the rear wheels. I was only able to fit 9 inch slicks in the factory wheel wells though. aluminum heads and a glide and a roll bar should help as well.



less weight up front and more weight toward the bed is best. the short wheelbase will be fun on the street (always obey the speed limit at all times).

[Scotty_S-15]

Welcome. In a word or two, yes, the S-10 suspension is up to the task. Some might say it\'d be easier to run low 10s with a back-halved truck with 4 link or ladder bars. Maybe, maybe not.



The following link to a recent message posted by RayL should say it all. 6.06 in the 1/8 mile, what does that equate to in the 1/4? dunno, but in that neighborhood that\'s for sure.



Ray\'s recent msg. (http://www.s10v8.com/viewtopic.php?topic=13807&forum=14)



And with your experience with the mini-motors, I\'m sure you\'ve got a lot of knowledge of turbos and/or nitrous. A big plus if you\'re looking to run 10s. Sure, there\'s lots of stuff you\'ll need to rethink, like powerbands, etc, but obviously the basic concepts are the same.



And oh yeah, regarding S-10 vs. Camaro, with something that runs 10s, (130+MPH) I\'d think aero & frontal area would be more of a concern than the traction.

[servion]

That is good to hear! I looks like Ray is running a blazer which I would assume is a little heavier on the backend than a pickup, but I have read through a few of his threads and its encouraging! 6.06 in the 1/8th is definitely getting it done! My civic does the 1/8th in 6.9 @ 110 with a 1.78 60\' and that\'s a rush, so I imagine that a 6.0 is a pretty good feeling http://www.s10v8.com/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif



My plan is to build it to drive to and from the track while running a local \"street-car\" class. Minitubs are ok but not a ladderbar or 4-link, it must be \"stock style suspension\" on 10\" or smaller tires.



I am very familiar with EFI and turbo setups. I plan to build a SBC with a pair of relatively small turbos, running with a sequential standalone setup (probably the bigstuff3 or autronic SM4). In the civic drag world, traction is really the biggest concern until you\'re over 150mph, which is very common for high 9-second e.t.\'s. It will be nice to get out of the whole on the back tires instead of hopping on the front http://www.s10v8.com/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif



I am looking at picking up an 88 shortbed s10, 2wd 4cyl with a straight body this weekend selling for $850.



I am looking a the motormounts sold here on this site... would they be sufficient, or is there a better recommendation?

[rayL]

my blazer has been 1.32 60ft front tires and 1.36 on the rear tires heh. It is easier to hook a blazer than the pickups but it can be done with a pickup. As far as comparing the s10 to a camaro, no comparison. The camaros have nearly a factory 4 link and can be made to work well easily. S10s/leaf spring, are a lil more finicky. Im building a truck for a friend that will be a radial heads up ride. What we did was get the truck as light as possible. fiberglass fenders, hood, bumpers, removed inner fender wells, trimed metal out the doors, basically removed what we felt was safe to remove. Put the battery in bed, fuel cell in bed, 9\" rear with IRON center section. place on scales that read each wheel and fron to back bias and side to side bias. added weight to the rear to get my percentage where i wanted and it didnt take much. havent ran it yet but id bet a 20 its close. Oh yea you can forget about getting a 10.5 w under an s10 with stock suspension/framerail. 295/65 radials is as big as she will hold. I run the 275s for the reason being....they are cheaper! So to be direct with you question, yes these trucks can work well with stock suspension but takes more time to get exact than a post 82 camaro, fox body, malibu....prety much anything with a coil spring. like i have said here before, if you cant get a pickup to hook then put a campershell on it cause a blazer will get it done http://www.s10v8.com/images/smilies/icon_cool.gif

[grimpuppy]

You should be able to do it pretty easy with stock suspension and turbo. I havn\'t messed with turbos much though. I do remember when the Grand National crowd was running 9\'s and faster with thier cars. They all said the turbo didn\'t like a lot of gear anyway, so traction wasn\'t much of a problem. A lot of them guys were putting it on the bumper with a 3.42 gear. Anyway I do not see mid 10\'s as being any problem at all on stock supsension. There are a few on here that are doing it already, and a few that are only a nitrous shot away from it http://www.s10v8.com/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif With your knowlage of EFI and turbos, I would think an EFI turbo motor that knocks down 20 mpg and runs 10\'s isn\'t to far fetched. Sounds like a good canidate for a killer turbo LS1 swap.

The blazers have a big advantage with weight distribution, They also have an optional roof rack worth at least 2 tenths http://www.s10v8.com/images/smilies/icon_razz.gif

[servion]

Thank you everyone for your valuable input. I have been doing some more searching on the weight topic, and perhaps google yielded me some poor data, but what I found says that the 1st gen pickups (shortbed, reg cab) curb around 2635lbs, while the 90-94 2-door blazers curb around 3536! It looks like a early 90\'s camaro curbs at 3105.



If this is right and there is nearly a 1000lb difference between the blazer and the pickup, I imagine from what Ray is saying that if I was able to add a fraction of that to the rearend of the pickup I could potentially get similar 60\'s while still maintaining a weight advantage. Is there an advantage to the blazer besides the heavier backend of the vehicle?



I don\'t think I should fiberglass anything seeing as I want to keep this a vehicle that sees significant street duty. But if I can lighten up the frontend a bit and add some weight to the backend to get the proper weight distribution while keeping it under the curb weight of a comprable blazer, I think this might be a good project to start http://www.s10v8.com/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif Any additional advice is appreciated!



EFI + turbo = a lot of tun

EFI + turbo + 8 cylinders = a LOT of fun http://www.s10v8.com/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif



I just recently tuned a foxbody mustang with a 383 and twin 67mm turbos with an old FAST batchfire box. This thing put down 1112whp at 20psi of boost... its a monster, and it sees some street duty as well http://www.s10v8.com/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif If anyone\'s interested I\'ll post a dyno video.



One last ignorant question. I am used to working on unibody cars myself, I know this question will sound stupid, but does the s10 pickup (and blazer for that matter) have an actual frame? I believe the answer is yes, but I don\'t want to assume incorrectly. I.E., do you need to worry about twisting the chassis, doors not closing properly, etc. once you start lifting the frontend, or does the fact that they\'re trucks give them some extra rigidity from the start? I haver many more questions, but I\'ll start with these http://www.s10v8.com/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif Thanks again

[ChevyKiD_69]

yeah the blazer and pickups have full frame under them. hey i would like to see the mustang dyno on here. nick

[grimpuppy]

As ChevyKid said, they do have full frames under them. The best way to stiffen them is with a roll bar or even better, a cage. If you are going ten o\'s you will need one any way. If you do not want the cage, then at a minimun you need to box the frame rails in the rear under the bed. The frame in the back is formed \"C\" channel. Do this by welding 3/16\" steel plate about 12\" long in 3 or 4 spots on each side. You can leave 6\" of gap between each plate. You do not have to completely box the whole frame rail. That will stiffen the frame quite a bit.



You can see the plates a little bit in this picture of my truck. Frame Plates (http://s10v8.com/members/grimpuppy/traction3.jpg)



I forgot to welcome you to the site also. Nice to see that there are few import guys out there that aren\'t all about wings and exaust tips.

[Scotty_S-15]

On 2006-12-01 11:11, servion wrote:

Thank you everyone for your valuable input. I have been doing some more searching on the weight topic, and perhaps google yielded me some poor data, but what I found says that the 1st gen pickups (shortbed, reg cab) curb around 2635lbs, while the 90-94 2-door blazers curb around 3536! It looks like a early 90\'s camaro curbs at 3105.



If this is right and there is nearly a 1000lb difference between the blazer and the pickup, .................................................. .......................... Thanks again

The \"1,000 lb. difference\" caught my eye.

Just wanted to point out that the weights you listed are probably even more out of whack than you might imagine. Especially the S-10 pickup. I don\'t think I\'ve heard of anyone having one that light. Most race-ready trucks come in around 2,850-3,000 lbs. Street trucks, 3,000 - 3,200. Sure, there are always always variations, but that\'s probably a good average. And that Camaro weight might be a little light for an average Camaro. A race Camaro, then yeah.

............. Let\'s see what the experts say.....

[servion]

For anyone who\'s bored, here\'s a video of that mustang that one of the guys put together who was there the night we dynoed it. I ran the tune ont he laptop and my buddy Jim (drives a vega that runs 8.19 in the 1/4) is driving... he\'s the guy to talk to here about v8\'s. We have e85 here at the pump and its an awesome fuel, so that\'s the \"pump gas\" that this car runs http://www.s10v8.com/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif premium1.uploadit.org/scubasteve//Dannys-Mustang.wmv (http://premium1.uploadit.org/scubasteve//Dannys-Mustang.wmv)



Regarding the weights, that is good to know... I just found that earlier data from a google search. Does anyone know of some weight numbers stock for stock comparing an s10 pickup to a blazer (first gen\'s)? I.E. how much heavier is a blazer with a similar setup? Basically, I\'m trying to decide which will eb a batter chassis to start with. If I can star with the pickup and then add the weight back in to get the same or better 60\'s than a blazer while having the overall weight equal or less than the similarly equipped blazer, I\'ll buy this pickup this weekend. Otherwise, I\'ll wait to get a nice blazer.

[ZZ4Blazer]

I just watched that on the TM forum earlier this week!!

[rayL]

i can tell you from experience those camaros are heavier than that. They are heavier than a typical s10 pickup. If you well versed, and it souds like you are, you could do a FI turbo setup and pull timing at launch and probably run 10.50s on some true street tires. I want to do a turbo but want it fuel injected and just cant get a good deal on a FAST. How about shane stack, you heard of him? Ran 4.96@156mph on stock supsension and drag radials in a freakin monte carlo SS. small block single turbo=SICK power

[servion]

Ray, I haven\'t heard of Shane Stack, but that time is DEFINITELY getting it done! Any links to a video peraps? http://www.s10v8.com/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif



After pondering the potions this weekend, I am beginning to lean towards a blazer chassis. I believe that it has more potential to be a \"sleeper\" i.e. I can hide a rollcage and minitub in the back http://www.s10v8.com/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif



The FAST is a good system. If you are seriously considering going EFI, check out the bigstuff3 (www.bigstuff3.com). Its really reasonably priced (I believe 1600-1700 range), especially for a sequential system. A buddy of mine is running this turbo on a SBF in an 03 mustang with the bigstuff3:

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We should be tuning it in mid Feb. http://www.s10v8.com/images/smilies/icon_cool.gif



While you guys are here educating me, I am curious as to setting optimal suspension height for a street/drag setup. If I understand correctly, you want to allow the readend to squat quickly to transfer all teh weight possible to the rear tires. How does ride height affect this? I.E. is it a good or bad idea to lower a truck in terms of chassis setup for racing?

[knudsonm]

lower is better to reduce the amount of air under the vehicle. You do not want the rear to squat. You actually want it to raise a little to help plant the tires

[s10carguy]

absolutely correct. any weight transfer from the front is passed through the frame and rear suspension. any squat is weight absorbed by the springs that should go to traction, so use heavy springs and traction bars if needed.

also, the pinion tends to lift up under power. this loads the rear suspension and tends to raise the body up an inch or so.

[servion]

Well, I suppose the question now is \"how low it too low?\" If I understand correctly, lowering the vehicle affects the pinion angle. Is it true the the pinion angle should be as close to zero as possible during a launch/acceleration (my searches are yielding mixed results on this one). If that\'s true, I suppose the engine and mount/readend combo will determine the proper ride height... am I on the right track?

[s10carguy]

yep, and everything revolves around ride height. jack the rear frame section up an inch or so, and measure the relative angle between the output shaft of the tranny and the pinion yoke. yoke should be 2-3 degrees below relative centerline using a simple angle finder. most trannies dip down about 5 degrees but I would double check anyway to be sure.

[mtincher]

i have been told that you can adjust your pinion angle(somehow) and it will help get the front tires up without squating the rearend down...is this true? if so do you know how to do it?



thanks

[s10carguy]

you can add traction bars or ladder bars to control pinion movement and excessive loading (wheel hop). at the track you want the traction bars snug. you could disconnect the front sway bar to free up the front suspension.

correct pinion angle saves u-joints and trannies, and reduces vibration.