MAJOR CHANGES to \'63 327

[rusty_cage520]

I have a 1963 impala ss 250hp 327 w/original-rebuilt heads in my 83 2wd ext. cab. we rebuilt the engine maybe 2 years ago, and has probably only been driven a total of 1-1/2 years or so. it is bored out .060 over to around 337ci. I currently am running a 600cfm elec. choke edelbrock 1406 carb. An offenhauser 360 degree intake. The exhaust goes out 80\'s 350 f-body ex.manifolds and into custom 2-inch true dual pipes through dual cherry bomb glasspacks. I believe I have 9.5:1 or so compression pistons in it. It has It has a replacement \'vette radiator. The engine is mated to a brand new manufactured 700r4 with a shift kit. which runs through a 2 piece driveshaft into a posi 7.5\" 3.73:1 geared rear diff. from an 80\'s f-body.



here are my plans and I am looking for any comments/help/suggestions/additoins or questions you have for me.



1) scoggin-dickey vortec heads (w/upgraded springs and retainers to support up to .525\" of lift) 64cc volume I DON\'T KNOW THE CURRENT CC OF MY STOCK \'63 HEADS??!?! HOW WILL THIS AFFECT MY compression??



2)edelbrock performer RPM air-gap vortec manifold



3)I am debating whether to keep my edelbrock 600cfm, or upgrade (shell out $400) to get a 650cfm speed demon



4)comp cams 274/286, Lift .487/.490



5)Comp Cams 1.6:1 Magnum roller tip rockers



6)I\'m currently at a loss for this one, but headers would be great



alright you will find that this buildup will be done by using a collection of info from these 3 particular articles (the BIG difference is that these guys each use a 355, but it would be more cost-effective for me to use my current 337 because it\'s already in my truck, lol.)



budget-built 440hp small block, which can be found in car craft or hot rod magazine



http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/81998/



super chevy\'s part 6 of Danger mouse a.k.a. \"the best build\" test 15



http://www.superchevy-web.com/tech/0312sc_dm15/index.html



car craft\'s battle of the titans--chevy



http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/116_0311_clash/index2.html



alright you guys, you choose what the best build is or what you would do in my situation.

thanks for all the help!

[spacecadet]

WOW!!! http://www.s10v8.com/images/smilies/icon_eek.gif



Welcome to the site!



Is really a call on what you can afford. I ususally recomend the inexpensive driveline swap. ie monte or impala into a s10 since its \"bolt in\".

Overall the info you have posted seems like you have your ideas in order. The headers could be purchased thru this site on the parts store.



Space.

[ZR1BLAZER]

everyone seems to like the vortech heads? i have never used them but i have seen them used on a low 12 sec s10 with a 350. and they dont cost near as much as a good set of aftermarket heads. i say get the vortechs. the 327 will love em. and i would defently go to a 650 carb. i have a large journal 327. i have alot of performance parts on it though. but with the high revving 327 and the good air flow and power potentail that the vortechs offer i think you will like them. but it depends on how much you have to spend and how fast you want to go?? if you want a bad a** drag truck that you next to never drive on the street i would go with a good aluminum head. but again its your call. good luck and welcome to the site.

[MARKYMARK]

going from manifolds to headers on my taime engine , dropped .4 in the 1/8. get rid of the manifolds

[ZR1BLAZER]

i 2nd that.

[rusty_cage520]

so which headers do you reccommend?

[rusty_cage520]

I had to weld 3 washers together and mount them between the engines and mounts just to get the exhaust manifolds to clear the steering shaft... it used to contact the knuckle on turns

[ZR1BLAZER]

i say use the sandersons. but the headmans are just as good just a little more tight at the pass side floor.

[Truckman91]

Can you pull your valve cover and get us the casting number of the heads? This will help us get how many cc\'s the comustion chamber is.



If you get the Vortec heads, you must buy a Vortec style intake, So most likely your looking at $1000 for your heads/intake combo once you get done with headgaskets and parts. Even if you dont get the Vortecs, get the air-gap intake.



Headers and a new 2.5\" exhaust would be my first choice. Get the 1 5/8\" and have a exhaust put on with mufflers, glasspacks just dont flow to well typically, and are LOUD. You can get more performance with less noise with a quality muffler.



For something like this we need to know the type of piston you have, Are they flat-tops(2 or 4 vavle relief), dished, or domed?



I would save the money right now and pass on the carb. Your money can be used somewhere else better right now.



For a cam I would get compcams XE268H, a great mild street cam with 224/230 dur @.050 and around .480 lift(1 step down from your choice, which I think the stock Vortec heads are good ~.480 anyways. Always get new lifters and matching springs



1.6s at this point would add a little lift, and going from .480 lift to .510 lift isnt going to make that much difference but the friction loss would be nice, especially if you could step up to full roller rockers.



Now here is what I would do if I were you, but I dont know your financial situation either:



1. Vortec heads and Vortec Air-Gap intake.



2. Have have headers with these nice heads or your defeating the gain you get from them by keeping the manifolds.



3. 2.5\" exahust with decent mufflers(2&3 would be done at the same time for sure)



4. Camshaft/lifters/springs.



5. Custom 1 piece driveshaft



6. Torque convertor around 2500rpm, B&M make some economical ones that have furnace braising and are fairly good quality for the money.



7. 650cfm carb



8. This could go on forever, so Ill stop here and wait for some feedback from you



I need the goals of the truck along with a budget? http://www.s10v8.com/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif



EDIT: I just reread your post and you were talking about SD Vortecs, not stock ones. But I would still stick with the same stuff

[rusty_cage520]

thanks again for all the info everybody



truckman91, I will pull a valvecover as soon as possible, maybe before work tomorrow. I\'m driving the truck anyways so no big deal.



The current pistons that I have are flat-top with four-valve relief.



I was planning on adding some comp cams roller-tip rockers they seem like a good comprimise in price between stock stamped-steel units, and full aluminum rollers



my th-7oor4 has a 2,500 stall torque converter by TCI I believe.



as far as goals for the truck? EAT RICE. I like performance four cylinders as much as the next guy. performance being the operative word. There is a \"racing\" club around here (we don\'t have a track mind you) called WRI, it stands for we run it, and it\'s all fart tips and pointless wings. There are some fast imports, I totally will acknowledge this, I am an avid reader of hot rod, truckin\', and sport compact car. (we won\'t get into super chevy, or chevy hi-performance, or the fact that if you cut me I bleed orange http://www.s10v8.com/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif but I\'m a reasonable guy, who loves his sleeper s-10. It beats a lot of stuff from stoplight to stoplight (not that I\'m endorsing street racing.....it\'s dangerous....), it just needs to beat more! It\'s by no mean a drag car, with a 2-3 drop, 17x8\'s with lo pros and a nice paint job, it\'s just a wolf in sheeps clothing but why not get in touch with the inner wolf a little bit more?



I think I\'ve made my goals clear. I didn\'t know much about engines when I was 16 and we put it together, and I would\'ve done things differently if I were to build it again, but there\'s no time like the present



I will get back to you with some casting numbers.



thanks

[rusty_cage520]

oh yea as far as a budget, I would like to spend between $2500-$3000 at the most if possible.



here\'s a link to the heads that I am planning on. they are part number SD8060A.



http://www.sdpc2000.com/catalog/2172/products/9063/Vortec-SB-Chevrolet-Cylinder-Head-w_-Valve-Spring-Upgrade.htm

[ZR1BLAZER]

sounds like what i thought you wanted to do. here is another option. plus have money left over in you expected budget to buy a set of headers and get the exahust done as well. these kit are good for over 400hp on a stock 350 so it will give what your looking for on the 327.

holley systemaxx II system (http://store.summitracing.com/default.asp?target=esearch.asp&N=110&Ntk=KeywordSe arch&Ntt=holley+systemax&x=21&y=7)

this is the part# HLY-300-503-1

[Truckman91]

Next question: DO you have $2500-$3000 avaliable now, or is that what you intend to spend over some time?

[rusty_cage520]

That is what I intend to spend over the next few months or so. It\'s going to be snowy up here until mid-march or so. I would like to add whatever I can soon, so I can drive it as much as possible when the better weather months roll around. I mean, I\'m in no hurry, don\'t get me wrong. I still have to finish paying for my paint job. about $300 or so. I don\'t have $2500 in my pocket right now. I actually priced a lot of the stuff that I wanted to do closer to $1600, so if that\'s possible great. I\'m really not looking for the most expensive parts, but not the cheapest either. I really want a good comprimise. The best bang for my buck is what you could say I\'m going for, even though the whole \"bang for buck\" concept is kind of subjective to other people\'s opinions.

[Truckman91]

Well with any engine, its just a big air pump. More air in and out makes more power, we all know this. The major componets that determine power in a certain ci engine are(in order)



1. HEADS

2. HEADS

3. HEADS

4. Camshaft

5. Compression



In every build up, most people start with an intake, headers, exhaust and camshaft.



These are all great add ons. But heads need to be the most expencive item you have on your engine if you are looking for power. Its amazing what a good set of AFR heads will do for you. They make awesome power with much smaller cams than other heads do.



I would do all your headers and exhaust, along with the camshaft. Then save for an awesome set of heads. If you have to save an entire year and not do any mods, it will be worth it in the end, AFR or other.



Heads are what make or break the power potential of an engine. The Vortecs you are looking at are typically excellent \"bang for the buck\" and will work very well for a 13 sec truck

but I am the kinda guy who says, \"For a few nickles more I can have the best\" but like you said its subjective....

[ZR1BLAZER]

well for the 1600 price you can get the holley system max II its only 1495. and still give you the power your looking for.

[Truckman91]

I agree, thats a great set-up. Just have to make sure you have headers with it. http://www.s10v8.com/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif

[rusty_cage520]

alright, it sounds like we\'re in a head war here



holley systemax Vs. AFR Vs SD vortecs



let\'s see some prices and opinions...



hahaha, alright talk to you guys later tonight after work

[mzoomora]

Vortecs, Air Gap, Comp 280 cam, and you will have a nice, driveable truck. With the Vortec heads on a 327 that engine will want to rev, so I think the 280 would be a good cam for that. The smaller runner on the heads(compared to a afr195 or similar 200cc head) will help keep idle vacuum up. The vortecs are a street friendly head that was stock in low compression, low hp trucks, but they flow like hell and make good power. They actually flow better than the old fuellie heads.

[mzoomora]

I ran that combo through desktop dyno and it said 366 ft/lb at 4500 and 362hp at 6000. It made over 300 ft/lb from 2000-past 6000 and over 350 from 3500-5500. Nice flat curve, good revs, and good useable power down low.



Also, I ran that same combo through with the AFR 195\'s and it gained 20 hp and 10 ft/lb peak, and only lost 10 ft/lb from 3500 rpm down. Those heads would benefit more from a large cam and would show larger gains there.

[ZR1BLAZER]

and if you still want to save a little and have a good set of heads foxdude311 has a nice set for sale. check these out. about the same class head as the vortech

<hr width='200'><img src='images/jpg.gif'>: <a href="http://www.s10v8.com/classifieds.php?op=viewbizdetails&amp;bid=196" BORDER="0" target=_blank><font size="-2">image will open in new window</font></a><hr width='200'>

[Truckman91]

But with those you have to know what S/R stands for. Stock Replacement, which means non-performance http://www.s10v8.com/images/smilies/icon_razz.gif

[ZR1BLAZER]

a freind of mine has a pair on an 87 camaro with a 350 (carbed) and still runs real high 12\'s very low 13\'s with not much done to the engine. i know S/R stands for stock replacement but still flow better then factory.

[macdaddydenton]

get a job done on your stock heads then save up for those AFRs i wouldnt buy new heads just to want the real deal later

[Fretbuzz520]

Alright, I pulled the driver\'s side valve cover and these are the numbers that I got for my stock 1963 impala 327 head.



D2468



GM

4 &lt;----that\'s in the middle





3795896

XT





thanks!

[Fretbuzz520]

correction to one of my earlier posts btw. I meant to say that I wasn\'t driving my truck. I won\'t be driving it all winter. I\'m currently driving my geo storm (ebay-sourced airflow chip, and \"cold\" intake, lol) hey maybe it\'s pushing 75hp or so now! I think it has zero torque though!

[rusty_cage520]

ok not sure, how I ended up posting under another alias that I use which is \"fretbuzz520\" but that IS me. I will continue to post under \"rusty_cage520\"

[ZR1BLAZER]

those are stock 327 and 283 heads. with 60cc cumbustion chambers. couldnt find any more info. but they arent any good for power. so i would upgrade if i were you.

[rusty_cage520]

interesting, so my compression is actually going to go down?



maybe none of this is going to be worth it then? should I just have the heads ported? hmmm.....now I\'m in a panic, lol

[ZR1BLAZER]

yep. if you have flat tops you might have close to 11.1 or more?

[rusty_cage520]

well, I have flat-tops with four-valve reliefs in them, I don\'t remember the compression ratio, I will find that out soon. But my point is if I have 60cc right now, and I bolt on 64cc heads my compression ratio is going to go DOWN. I highly doubt I will have anything near 11:1

[mzoomora]

With a 64cc head, regular head haskets, and flat tops with stock deck heght (usually over .030\") you will come in under 10-1, probably around 9.75 or so.

[rusty_cage520]

hmmm...is there a way I can get as close to 10:1 as possible? with 64cc vortec heads replacing my 60cc stock 327 heads? my cylinders are .060\" over as well.

[ZR1BLAZER]

? you need to know what comp pistons were put in during the rebuild. my 327 is .030 over and with 64cc heads i am right at 10.6-10.7

[rusty_cage520]

alright, I will be getting on the phone with the shop guys that did our head work and ordered all of the rebuild stuff, in order to get the compression of the pistons.





my dad, his friend mike, and I have been workin\' on my sister\'s \'70 nova tonight

Mike has convinced me not to get the vortec heads or air gap manifold and to port the existing 60cc heads and current 360 degree offenhauser intake. He says the offy intake has a much lower powerband, which I will be using more often. 1500-5500 is the powerband I belive. He says that the edelbrock air-gap on his truck has it\'s powerband between like 3000 and 6000.



I\'m just thoroghly confused now. I don\'t know what to do. I have read an article on a 318mopar that made 400hp with ported heads and a few other minor things.



I need some feedback folks, thanks

[ZR1BLAZER]

its real hard when you dont know a whole lot about engines and you have 100 different people telling you 100 different things. all i can suggest is save the money you were going to use for the build up and buy a create engine? then you can just buy the horse power you want. when you say a 318 made 400hp with stock ported heads?? there are alot of different variables. just like chevy they made more then just 1 set of heads. that could have been a set of high performance factory heads along with a good cam and a few other things. even if you port the heads you have i dont see you making 400hp? if anyone thinks i am wrong please correct me. every combo given to you in these 4 pages of posts\' will give you that 400hp goal. so the choice is yours. good luck on the build.

[rusty_cage520]

alright all, here\'s the dillemma. I have just been introduced to another option. my dad has a stock 350 in his \'73 pickup, not the one that came with it, just a crate or replacement engine, anyway, it\'s not powerful. He had a targetmaster 350 in it at one point, and he would like us to rebuild it and put it back in there. If that were the case, I could then do whatever I wanted to the current 350 (it would be mine).



1) keep the 327! it does have some nastalgic value to it. an old impala engine. it\'s rare in an s10 (maybe not, but more so than a 350, you have to admit). Hop up the 327 a little bit.



2) do everything we\'ve been talking about to the 350. who cares about rarity or nastalgia, I would have so many more options with the 350. so many more aftermarket parts to choose from. I could finally do, to my einge, what all these guys in these articles are doing, that I\'ve been drueling over. finally I could just follow the repeatable power that they have made with the parts that they have listed.



help http://www.s10v8.com/images/smilies/icon_confused.gif

[ZR1BLAZER]

well as you stated in your first post. the 327 is allready bored .060 over. that is a little scary for everyday driving. those cylinder walls are thin and anything could happen. if you have the chance to get a stock 350 that has never been touched then yes get the 350. and even though i have a 327 myself the 350 is a better option. you can do all the same things to each motor and fin that you gain more power and alot more torque with the 350 then the 327. so i say 350 you wont regret it. good luck.

[Truckman91]

On 2004-12-22 20:26, rusty_cage520 wrote:

Mike has convinced me not to get the vortec heads or air gap manifold and to port the existing 60cc heads and current 360 degree offenhauser intake. He says the offy intake has a much lower powerband, which I will be using more often. 1500-5500 is the powerband I belive. &lt;font size=1&gt;[ This message was edited by: rusty_cage520 on 2004-12-23 01:24 ]&lt;/font&gt;





This is the worst part about hot-rodding in my opinion. People give othrr people the worst information. Misinformation give people the worst combos, and then they wonder why their vehicle is slow.



Those nonperformance heads along with a single plane is about as bad as it can get! Even ported those old casting wont flow close to the vortecs. Besides flow its combustion chamber design that also is something most look over. Do you want 30-40 year old technology or 1996+ technology. There is a reason these heads are sooo popular. The info you got was worse than anything in this thread by far!!



FYI: The Vortec Air-Gap RPM is 1500-6500 RPM, its the best intake out right now IMO.



Single planes are typically 3000-7500 rpm. And Id bet the Offy is another 30+ year old product.



I gotta run, close to Christmas...



Merry Christmas everyone, remember why we celebrate....

[rusty_cage520]

hey you guys I really have to thank all of you again for all of your help.



Truckman91, would you go with the idle-5500 air gap, or the 1500-6500 air gap?



I really think that I\'m just going to start adding items to that untouched 350, as I get the money to do so, and then hopefully be able to \"drop it in\" the s10 around summer. Thanks again for all of your help everyone!



have a great holiday everyone!